Daegaer ([info]daegaer) wrote,
@ 2005-01-28 11:50:00
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Entry tags:culture, humour, politics, rants

Thar she blows, part the seventh
For [info]stellanova




"Where are you from?"

"Ireland."

"Oh! Sure and begorrah!"

Let me just grind my teeth right down to the gumline for a moment.

"Hey! I like those houses! It's really neat how you folk make sure your housing projects keep a look of the traditional thatched cottages!"

Backs stiffen and heads turn all along the upper deck of the 77A.

"Excuse me? Could you tell me what that big church is?"

"Oh, yes! That's the Black Church. Local legend has it that if you run around it anti-clockwise at midnight you'll see the Devil. But it's not used anymore, it's closed."

"Oh, what a shame. Did the Protestants do that?"

Self, this is a nice little old lady. Take a deep breath.

What did all these people have in common (other than really and truly saying those things to me, I swear to God)? They believed that Ireland was inhabited by people who smoked their spuds by the light of a turf fire in a picturesque cottage while speaking like some fucking Darby O'Gill and the Little People extra while being oppressed by the Protestants. So that I don't have an aneurysm I won't go into the details of the people who kindly explained to me slowly and simply how to operate (a) a microwave and (b) a shower. Jaysus, us filthy peasants do be keepin' turf in the bath and a shower do be fierce strange to us. Shure, how will the pigs in the kitchen recognise us if we start smellin' of soap? These people were also all American - I have come across people of other nationalities who have the same views, but it does seem to be a particularly American thing. Even people who didn't say those sorts of things felt it, for some reason, appropriate to start talking in a bad approximation of The Quiet Man type accent when they learned I was from Ireland. (Amusingly, on one visit to the States I discovered my host's friends had worked out I had a non-local accent, but couldn't decide what it was. They decided it was snobby Bostonian, until the magic word "Ireland" was mentioned, whereupon my accent was no longer snobby Bostonian, but a "charming brogue". As other LJ-ers can attest, neither "Boston" nor "brogue" fits how I sound).

And when I get on the internet what do I find? Oh God, yet more Paddywhackery. From the internet I find that we all speak "Gaelic", we're all superconservative!Catholics, we're all pagans really, we all live in fear of the Catholic Church, we don't have contraception, there's a religious war on, we all drink Guinness all the time, we're all red-heads, we hate the British but we're pretty much the same as the Scottish and the Welsh (who aren't British, apparently), we have soft lilting accents, we live life at a slower more natural pace, we like getting into fights, we all support the IRA (unless we're self-hating West Brits), and, most importantly, we have no right to say any of this is incorrect. Try to point out - and I mean "point out" not "scream in incoherent rage" that the above list of stereotypes is incorrect and often insulting, that the name of one of the two official languages of this country is "Irish", that the name of the country is "Ireland", that in fact Ireland is a modern Western country and sit back astounded at the sheer hysterical insistence that you are wrong, wrong, WRONG, you know nothing about your country's history, culture, language or politics. How lucky us poor ignorant Paddies are, to have the denizens of the internet to put us right!

That internet resistance to hearing what Ireland is like, and the very real disappointment I've seen on tourists' faces when they realise the country they've come to visit doesn't exist outside of Hollywood stereotypes and the cynical playing upon them of the Irish Tourist Board makes me think that some people need us to be that set of stereotypes, for whatever reason. They need to be able to tell us we are what they say we are, because --well, why? What elements of fantasy-Ireland do they want so badly and what does it say about their own lives that they want them? Whatever it is, they won't find it here, because this is a real country with all the problems and pleasures that a real country with real inhabitants has. We're not what they're looking for, and maybe they should start looking closer to home.



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[info]stellanova
2005-01-28 11:57 am UTC (link)
*applauds wildy and cheers so loudly you can probably hear it in your office*

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]daegaer
2005-01-28 12:06 pm UTC (link)
I hope you're applauding in Gaelic, young colleen!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]derryderrydown
2005-01-28 11:58 am UTC (link)
*cheers*

I'm not even Irish and I get pissed off by the stereotypes.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]daegaer
2005-01-28 12:13 pm UTC (link)
Stereotypes of any country annoy me - so lazy!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lasultrix
2005-01-28 12:04 pm UTC (link)
Have you seen Million Dollar Baby? GAELIC GAELIC GAELIC GAAAAAAAAAAAH.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]daegaer
2005-01-28 12:07 pm UTC (link)
Argh! Why, why, why? Would it kill them to say "Irish"? Would they just fall down and die?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 12:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]daegaer, 2005-01-28 12:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 12:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hfnuala, 2005-01-28 12:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 12:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hfnuala, 2005-01-28 12:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]therck, 2005-01-28 03:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 04:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]therck, 2005-01-28 05:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 05:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]therck, 2005-01-28 05:57 pm UTC (Expand)

(Reply from suspended user)

[info]daegaer
2005-01-28 12:11 pm UTC (link)
Oh, they get angry, all right. There've been a few blow-ups on [info]linguaphiles for Irish posters daring to say that the language is called "Irish". And on one of the feminist communities an Irish poster got comments deleted for pointing out that every word said by a poster was incorrect (she had claimed, among other things, that contraception is illegal here, that single women are advised to wear wedding rings to keep them "safe", and that Irish society generally is exactly as is shown in Dancing at Lughnasa). Other commenters leaped in to scram about Ireland being priest-ridden, totally Catholic, etc, etc, yawn.

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(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 12:34 pm UTC (Expand)

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 10:37 pm UTC (Expand)

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]yiskah, 2005-01-28 12:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]biascut, 2005-01-30 04:55 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]hfnuala
2005-01-28 12:08 pm UTC (link)
I think it's a founding myth thing. Last night our gaming group were talking about how many Americans go into raptures about medieval buildings in Europe but ignore 3000 year old sites in their back gardens. And I think it's related. There are 2 myths: 1) Europe sucked and was never going to change and 2) America was empty. The anger comes from when you challenge these myths.

Now for the disclaimers. I am very aware this is not true for all Americans, many of whom can put me to shame with the depth of their reading and the breath of their interests. But I think it's a valid observation, none the less.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]daegaer
2005-01-28 12:18 pm UTC (link)
I think you're on to something there. I have noted that Americans of the "Brits Out" variety tend not to like having it pointed out that the Ulster planters arrived more or less at the same time the Mayflower did.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2005-01-28 01:50 pm UTC (Expand)
random responses. - [info]hfnuala, 2005-01-28 03:02 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]biascut
2005-01-28 12:18 pm UTC (link)
My international guppies, particularly the American ones, are all very excited about the idea of going to Ireland for St Patrick's Day. I just hope they don't think they're going to get there by Chunnel.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]daegaer
2005-01-28 12:25 pm UTC (link)
GRAR!

Cream in her tea? What the fuck? Chunnel?

And Catholics abounding. (Maybe even a-leaping and a-bouncing).

But seriously, you might want to tell the Guppies that St Patrick's Day is a holiday here. Everything shuts. And after the parade (which is small and shabby by US standards), that's it, unless they want to stay in the city centre and participate in the traditional stabbings.

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(no subject) - [info]deannie, 2005-01-28 02:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 12:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]yiskah, 2005-01-28 12:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stellanova, 2005-01-28 12:29 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]sorenr
2005-01-28 12:27 pm UTC (link)
Vous m'ôtez mes illusions!!!

('Cause I'm Euro-trashy like that...)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]daegaer
2005-01-28 02:24 pm UTC (link)
But Yooorpeens aren't trashy! You're all tasteful and jaded and louche!

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(no subject) - [info]sorenr, 2005-01-28 02:49 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]gramarye1971
2005-01-28 12:33 pm UTC (link)
*head-desk at the sheer awfulness of the stereotypes*

That's painful just to read. I admire your ability to keep from throttling people like that.

These people were also all American - I have come across people of other nationalities who have the same views, but it does seem to be a particularly American thing.

I'll say -- my first name is Shannon, and on more than one occasion I've had people (Americans, yes) peer at me as if seeing me for the first time and ask in this sort of half-cooing, half-awed manner, 'Ooh, are you Irish, then?' *scowls* Good heavens, people, it's not as if it's an uncommon name.

But yes. Excellent rant.

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[info]daegaer
2005-01-28 01:32 pm UTC (link)
I have to admit I never quite know what to do when someone called Colleen or Shannon cheerfully tells me they're Irish - I have no problem telling myself that these are American names, and quite usual in the context of America. But when someone wants me to validate their Irishness because of being called "Girl" or being named after a river/town/airport I tend to go somewhat blank. Oh, the hazards of names!

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(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 01:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stellanova, 2005-01-28 02:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]leedy, 2005-01-28 03:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kylegirl, 2005-01-28 04:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]riarambles, 2005-01-29 01:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kylegirl, 2005-01-29 05:28 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]radegund, 2005-02-05 10:48 am UTC (Expand)

[info]cathexys
2005-01-28 12:43 pm UTC (link)
yes, i think your last paragraph really nails it! there's something about projecting your own needs and desires outwards...i'm simultaneously reminded of American Jewish relationship to Israel and this wonderful scene in DeLillo's White Noise where the protagonist realizes in horror that the nun doesn't believe in God only to be told that she exists b/c *other* people--even when not believing--need *her* to believe...

As for the inability to operate a microwave...let's just say that I've encountered that a few times myself...my dad almost left a conference once where he was proudly presented an X-Ray machine...I mean, obviously noone there seemed to be aware of the fact that maybe Wilhelm Röntgen was...oh...German??? (and yes, all of this, also by Americans :-)

I think while politically the US gave up their isolationism a long time ago, I'm not sure ehen/whether they did so culturally. Just look at any US newspaper and try to find non-US events...

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[info]vervassal
2005-01-28 12:48 pm UTC (link)
Like the world cup. Sigh. Another favorite: My family's from Newcastle and I have friends from Manchester and Sheffield. When they told American people where they were from, all they got was a frown and a wrinkled brow. They all gave up explaining and have just started saying they're from London.

Cities other than London? No!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]daegaer, 2005-01-28 01:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 01:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]deannie, 2005-01-28 02:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]daegaer, 2005-01-28 02:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]deannie, 2005-01-28 03:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ankewehner, 2005-11-25 09:50 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]pinguin
2005-01-28 12:58 pm UTC (link)
What? You mean you're not all living in bogs and howking tatties for a living? I'm so disappointed!

But... scuse my ignorance, what *is* the situation with contraception?

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[info]hfnuala
2005-01-28 01:02 pm UTC (link)
After you've had your 8th child in 9 years, you can go to your doctor and they'll write you a note telling your husband to leave you alone.

For unmarried women there are aspirins for holding between their knees.

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OW! - [info]deannie, 2005-01-28 02:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: OW! - [info]pinguin, 2005-01-28 04:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: OW! - [info]deannie, 2005-01-28 05:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hfnuala, 2005-01-28 01:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]daegaer, 2005-01-28 01:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stellanova, 2005-01-28 01:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hfnuala, 2005-01-28 01:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]oursin, 2005-01-28 03:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]oursin, 2005-01-28 01:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pinguin, 2005-01-28 01:34 pm UTC (Expand)

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]hfnuala, 2005-01-28 02:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]daegaer, 2005-01-28 01:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pinguin, 2005-01-28 01:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]daegaer, 2005-01-28 01:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hfnuala, 2005-01-28 02:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 01:43 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]burntcopper
2005-01-28 01:41 pm UTC (link)
:sidles in: With all this ranting in mind, is there any way I could take a few of these snippets (accredited of course) for the Irish section of Oi Yanks No. It's sadly lacking in a rant space for Irish stuff. All rants on inaccuracies quite welcome.

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[info]daegaer
2005-01-28 01:44 pm UTC (link)
Please do!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]louiselux
2005-01-28 02:17 pm UTC (link)
*applauds*

Whatever it is, they won't find it here, because this is a real country with all the problems and pleasures that a real country with real inhabitants has.

Absolutely. And that's the thing. Clinging on to those cosy illusions and sterotypes about Ireland is destructive too, because it means real problems and real pleasures can get ignored or just swept under the carpet.

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[info]crotalus_atrox
2005-01-28 02:43 pm UTC (link)
I think I've told you before that the only thing I've ever assumed about Ireland is that the mail would get to you at the same rate it did to [info]louiselux. But I was *wrong*.

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[info]ballyharnon
2005-01-28 02:57 pm UTC (link)
Sure and begorrah indeed. I moved from Dun Laoghaire to Kansas. And I tink me oiyes are stuck in a roll. 'Ooooooosquee, I love your accent!' 'Do you speak Gaelic?' 'Oooooh, what part of Ireland are you from?' I tell them Dublin for simplicity's sake because they've never heard of Dun Laoghaire -or in fact any part of Ireland other than Dublin, unless they're potilical and have heard of Belfast- and I get 'Have you been to the Guinnes brewery or Trinity College or this that or the other thing?'

'Well, have you been to the Wizard of Oz museum?' Daft bloody eedjots.

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[info]deannie
2005-01-28 03:12 pm UTC (link)
they've never heard of Dun Laoghaire -or in fact any part of Ireland other than Dublin

I just say my parents are from the south part of Ireland. Because Cork is indeed south of Dublin. *sigh*

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(Deleted post)

[info]leedy
2005-01-28 03:51 pm UTC (link)
"Sha-VON."

Probably Siobhán, which is a very common Irish name - his pronunciation isn't actually that bad! Shyu-VAWN is probably about right...

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(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 04:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]leedy, 2005-01-28 04:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 05:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]leedy, 2005-01-28 05:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 05:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]leedy, 2005-01-28 05:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 04:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stellanova, 2005-01-28 04:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lasultrix, 2005-01-28 05:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]derien, 2005-01-29 12:15 am UTC (Expand)

[info]chairman_wow
2005-01-28 03:36 pm UTC (link)
When we moved to the States from Germany someone asked my mom if we had washing machines and VCRs over there.
*bangs head against keyboard*
Oh, and then someone invited us to an octoberfest.
I feel your pain.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]hungry_worm
2005-01-28 08:48 pm UTC (link)
*snickers* that reminds me that, when I was in australia, a guy in the bus squeed at me "oh! from Germany?!! *excited hopping* So, say, do you have aboriginals/native people there too?"
Me: *stare*
Me: "We are the native people..."

*headdesk*

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(no subject) - [info]chairman_wow, 2005-01-28 09:01 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]navi_di
2005-01-28 03:44 pm UTC (link)
Oh, teh irony -- nobody believes me when I tell them I have to Google for instructions every time I try to fix something in the microwave here at college. Or that I don't have one at home.

As to the Americans with the notion that Ireland (or anywhere else, for that matter) is exactly like the picture-postcards and/or history classes...

I can understand a little bit of that -- where I live, at least, anything that was around in the 1800s is ancient. Buildings, trees, you name it.

Before that, who knows? Nobody teaches Native American history (again, at least where I live), so pretty much, the American notion of history as it took place here doesn't go any further than the 17th century.

I wen to Germany once, though, and there, people are still using buildings the Romans built. And while no one I know expected them to be wearing togas or anything, it was still ... very different. So I can sort of-maybe-kind of understand where people are coming from when they expect European countries to be stuck in the 12th century or something. It's stupid all the same, but there is a reason for it.

... Does that make any sense?

(I have no explanation for those who insist that they know all about Ireland and you're clearly wrong despite, you know, living there. That's just weird.)

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[info]leedy
2005-01-28 03:46 pm UTC (link)
Oh my, that was wonderful. I used to get told by tourists when I worked in Dublin Castle that I "didn't sound Irish", presumably because my conversation was sadly lacking in the word "begorrah". And I was once asked in all seriousness did I know what a tin of beans was, as the proprietor of the Morecambe boarding house I was staying in on a choir trip had been told that "the Irish don't have canned food".

(Hello, by the way, I am [info]stellanova's sister. Can I befriendificate you?)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]daegaer
2005-02-07 10:42 am UTC (link)
I'm quite frequently told I have a Scottish accent (usually once someone knows my mother is half-Scottish, even though this accent was not detectable before), sometimes an American one. I'm so confused!

(Although I doubt I'll ever be let live down my petulant query after a night in the pub: Och, Ah'll ha tae tak a taksi! An' wheer's ma car left? Sadly, my Scottish heritage comes out only when I am very, very pissed)

Please do friend me!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]siriaeve
2005-01-28 03:58 pm UTC (link)
Hi; I'm a random Irish person who stumbled across this rant, and I just had to tell you that I think it's a thing of beauty. I'm seriously considering printing it off and sending it to my cousins in America. They rejoice in telling people that they are 'five-eighths Irish', but thought that we all still live in thatch cottages without electricity, were shocked that I'm not a red-head, and openly referred to me as a 'traitor' because I firmly and clearly stated that I would never, ever agree to vote for or support Sinn Féin or the IRA.

And don't even get me started on the Gaelic thing - it's a language group, not a language. I've been attacked so many times for trying to explain the difference between them - it's like people don't even want to know that they might be wrong. It befuddles me a lot.

*adds post to memories*

(Reply to this)


[info]vongroovy
2005-01-28 04:16 pm UTC (link)
But...but...what do you mean that's not what it's like? How dare you disillusion me!

*stab stab stab*

My ancestors were a rather varied lot, but the majority were German and Irish, which is what I generally answer with if anyone asks my heritage. It's disturbing how many times I've then been asked things like, "Oh, have you made a pilgrimage to the Ould Country yet?" and "Can you say anything in Gaelic then?" Worse still is if I get, "But I'm Irish too," which seems to come with the assumption that we have discovered a deep and special bond between us and must go forth in green clothing to dance in a meadow to the sweet sound of the fairy's music before skipping off to find the end of the rainbow and then a Real Authentic Irish Pub for a pint o' Guinness.

One time "But I'm Irish too" was followed by "I wonder if we're related?" That one made me die a little inside.

The German bit is usually overlooked because obviously that's not nearly so romantic, but I have more than a few times heard, "Oh, are you a Nazi then?"

(Reply to this)


[info]naomichana
2005-01-28 04:17 pm UTC (link)
*blink* Hmmmm. You know, all of this would make much better sense if Ireland had thoughtfully joined Atlantis under the sea in the Unspecified Ancient Times O. It's the mapping of Fairyland onto contemporary people and places that puzzles me -- especially when the people are there in person, because the first Irish native I become friends with was a civil engineer whose principal interest in "Celtic myth" was a certain wince every time someone mentioned Boston's professional basketball team.

(Reply to this)


[info]strange_selkie
2005-01-28 04:28 pm UTC (link)
Eeep. I'm really sorry about Americans in general. (How can they imagine none of Ireland has a shower or a microwave when all of you are hermetically glued to your mobiles? *ducks!*)

*sends apologies*

(Reply to this)


[info]mendax
2005-01-28 05:23 pm UTC (link)
This rant is a thing of beauty. How often a day must I hang my head in shame on behalf of my countrymen? I don't suppose it's much of a consolation that our ignorant stereotyping of Ireland leans toward romance and fetishization rather than demonization, pity, dismissal and scorn like we do to the non-Western European portions of the world. Or that we're equally as likely to stereotype other regions of the U.S. as we are to stereotype other countries. (Perhaps even more likely, since certainly we are more concerned with ourselves than we are with that amorphous "rest of the world".) I'm so depressed now.

(Reply to this)


[info]weyrlady
2005-01-28 05:35 pm UTC (link)
I have no idea what "sure and begorrah" is, actually. I'd apologize, but really, there's no great love for America *or* stupid people. ^^;

(Reply to this)


[info]meganberrieh
2005-01-28 05:44 pm UTC (link)
Oh, yay. How fabulous!

How can Americans possibly think that about Ireland? I mean, I know better, and surely I'm representative, right?

(Reply to this)


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